Help ID this antique pool table by Brunswick Balke Collender.
I've included pics of what I've been told is the original rack as well as the score slide. The chalk writing is what's on the back of the slate. I'm not sure what it says and could be of some significance to those in the know, could be nothing more than a sign off, your guess is as good as mine. "2333" is the number stamped on the rails and the slate beds, in the underside of the rails is marked with the 2333 as well as the number 130, again I have no idea if they have any significance. I've read many of the other id requests and feel the 2333 is serial number and not likely helpful but the 130 although likely the same situation, I figured it couldn't hurt to add them.
Best I can find is possibly a Brunswick Balke Collender Warwick or even Saratoga but the side rails aren't held on in the same manner. The bolts do not go through the outer pieces which would then use and show the brass snap covers or rosettes seen on most.
The only piece of info I've been able to gain is, I feel, nothing but a guess, and that's the mention of the table being from 1903 or perhaps 1905. Unfortunately using that info I've not been very successful with id otherwise I wouldn't be bothering you all on here.
Most certainly either a Warwick or Saratoga model.
It really looks like a Brunswick Warwick pool table all the way - as long as it is at least a 9-foot pool table. If it's smaller, it's probably a Saratoga.
Also looks to be missing the trim under the rail blinds which also makes it harder to be sure.
Those number e.g. "2333" would have been to keep track of matching parts from the same table. Not even really serial numbers as far as I understand (though we'll never know as Brunswick had long-ago suffered a near-complete loss of customer records not once, but twice, due to fires). The "130" would not be a number relevant to identification or a model number (but never hurts to post all of the details as you did).
They were made from 1904 To 1911 so it could be from any time within that 8-year period
A lot of people mistake the Brunswick Saratoga (and lower-priced Brunswick Newport) pool tables for the Warwick. They are nearly identical, but the Warwick is considered superior and was a bit more pricey. The Warwick had that thicker decorative trim at the bottom of the apron whereas the Saratoga's is thinner.
Check this out - comparing the Saratoga and Newport pool tables:
Here's the technical bulliten from Brunswick's 1908 catalog for the Warwick pool table:
Technical Information: From the 1908-1909 Brunswick Balke Collender Co., catalog, page 28:
9 Pro options (50" x 100" Playfield)
Slate: 1" 3 piece unframed, optional 1 1/2"
10 Foot options (56" x 112" Playfield)
Slate: 1: 3 piece unframed; optional 1 1/2"
Color Options: Golden Oak, Mahogany
Produced under 18 construction patents awarded from 1892 to 1905; A design patent was awarded on December 1, 1903.
Handsomely figured golden oak or mahogany; Monarch Perfect Angle cushions.
The 5x10 size is also available in 6 legs.
The nonpareil of high grade billiard and pool tables, equalled by few and surpassed by none in quality.
Of all the many elegant designs of high grade billiard and pool tables produced by us during the past 40 years, we consider the Warwick without a rival. It has a simplicity of design, gracefulness or outline and with all an appearance of massive solidity which embodies features of attractiveness that are absolutely unsurpassed. In point of construction and finish the Warwick ranks with the very best that can be produced in billiard and pool tables.
The slate bed is best quality Vermont one inch thick, the sections being joined with brass dowels and sockets. No screw holes on the playing surface. Can be furnished with slate 1 1/2" in thickness where desired, at a small advance in cost.
The cushions are the celebrated quick acting Monarch, guaranteed the most perfect angle cushion in the world. Used by all professional players in America and Europe.
The cushion rails are of extra heavy construction and firmly bolted to the slate bed. In all of our high grade tables, what is termed a "blind cushion rail" is made use of, that is the bolts holding the cushion rails to the slate bed are concealed by woodwork. This eliminates the cheap appearing ornamental bolt caps and gives greater weight to the cushion rail, which means better results from the cushions. The cushion rail tops are veneered with rosewood, which does not change color, cannot be easily disfigured with lighted cigars and does not have the objectionable features of a varnish finish.
By the way, that scorekeeper is from a company called:
E.J. Riley Limited
That company became the "Riley" name that is still popular in cue sports today (though the company in it's original incarnation went belly-up in 2002, the rights to the name was purchased and is still used.
Great history available online if you search for it.
That apron mentioned is not missing but according to the stamped numbers original and one of the things that throws me for identity.
Also the fact that on the Saratoga and Warwick, those same pieces have the side bolts going through them and then covered with a decorative brass bezel or rosette whereas this table conceals them and does not have the bezel or the decorative apron.
The playing field (bumper to bumper) is 50 1/2" x 100 1/4"
Yes agreed. I still lean toward the Warwick model for yours. Those old Brunswick catalog photos were not photographs, but rather, artist's renderings, and actual production units could differ somewhat. Especially over the 8-year span the Warwick was produced. Not to mention the tendency for pool room owners to repair pool tables in a Frankenstein fashion, using spare parts from any other tables that would fit.
This is what I mean by the piece I don't see on yours:
I am not sure how you could know for sure that a trim strip isn't missing... It really looks like something belongs there on yours, but is missing. I agree that what is there, IS original, but might be missing a piece of trim.
Reminds me to point you to this post with more photos from this table above:
After looking at my post it appears I failed to add a picture of the tag on the end rail.
Also, I'm not opposed to removing the felt from the rails if there's a good chance I'll find some type of markings to help identify it.
As for the decorative skirt, as far as I can tell there is no evidence of something being removed (nail holes, wood fillers, stain discoloration,etc) and the numbers suggest they are the original pieces. After looking at the photos you've provided as well as many others. It appears to me that the decorative skirt is all I've piece and not an added trim. In my opinion it wouldn't make much sense for it to be a separate piece considering how easily it would have been damaged and knocked off from basic game play. I'm not sure I can recall a single game where I've had to get right against the table while stretching for a shot. Then again I'm not the tallest in the world at 5' 9" (short people problems 🤷♂️).
I guess what I'm looking to find out more than anything is the potential value for this antique pool table. If the link you've last provided suggests that this table is worth upwards of $10k, does anyone wanna come grab this bad boy for $5k LOL (not a joke btw)?
No matter what the outcome ends up being and whether or not I'm able to nail down anything definitive it's important to mention that I do recognize your time is valuable so any spent on this is truly appreciated.
There are a few others, but this list should be good to get your started.
What I'd do is shoot some emails out to these guys with a link to the thread here. Ken is especially helpful from what I hear. Always willing to help out and answer questions, even if you aren't buying parts etc.
Same with the guys at Bankshot.
Blatt are a higher-end antique and custom pool table shop, caters to movie stars, professional athletes, and super wealthy clients, etc., and sometimes don't really get back to you, but can be helpful at times.
It's been great to see the photos of your antique pool table. Hopefully if you discover any more, you'll share the info here.
Thanks so much for the update. How did you end up figuring that out?
Check this out. It's a pool table image from the Kansas City Billiard Table Mfg. Co. brochure/catalog. It looks to be identical to the model you have. I don't have any further info, or even a model name, unfortunately.
Id Brunswick-Balke-Collender Warwick or Saratoga
Title: Id Brunswick-Balke-Collender Warwick or Saratoga