I was playing 8 ball last night and we play BCA rules. My opponent had pocketed all of his balls and was left to shoot the 8 ball.
Here is where the question is. The cue ball and the 8 ball are both against the same rail (both balls are touching the rail). The cue ball and the 8 ball are about 2 inches apart. My opponent hits the cue ball just hard enough to tap the 8 ball in order to keep the cue ball hidden behind the 8 ball and to prevent me from having a shot (snookered me). When he did this, neither ball left the rail they stayed right against it.
I know that when making a shot that the cue ball or the object ball must hit a rail after the cue ball hits the object ball if the object ball is not pocketed.
- Mitch Alsup on 3/27/2009 1:50:56 PM
1.20.1 If the first object ball contacted by the cue ball is frozen to a cushion, then the cue ball makes contact with the frozen object ball:
- a ball must be pocketed, or;
- the cue ball must contact the cushion, or;
- the frozen ball must contact attached to a different rail, or;
- another ball must contact a cushion.
1.20.2 Any ball, including the cue ball, which is frozen to a cushion at the start of a shot and is then forced into the cushion attached to the same rail is not considered to have been driven into that cushion, unless it leaves the cushion, contacts another ball, and then contacts the cushion again.
Somewhere in 2008 there was an APA ruling that allows a massé shot to be considered to have left the cushion and then returned to that cushion without touching a ball. But, here, the cue had to visibly leave the rail.
1.20.1.b could be read to allow a cue ball frozen to the rail and continues frozen to a rail afterwards to be considered to have touched a rail; however, the intent of the rest of this section is to disallow this, explicitly with the object ball:: So, I would argue that the described shot is a foul.
- Fenwick on 3/27/2009 4:57:40 PM
I'm on the same page as Mitch. Right now the point is moot. In hindsight I would have called my team captain for a ruling.
So you don't feel like the only one who had one pulled on you. Today I played someone new who made a mark on the table with the chalk while my back was turned. I nice big blue circle. Not a league or money game but when I saw it I asked WT hell is this. "Oh, I marked where I needed the cue ball to stop for my next shot." I removed it with my hand and never turned my back on him again. I won the matches but likely won't play him again.
- Justanotherevolutionary on 3/27/2009 6:50:50 PM
Good lord.. I've heard of some strange tactics but that is ridiculous. I guess I better pay more attention at league! If I see any circles on my table during 9 ball, it's safety hell, and I'm not calling a one of them. How pathetic. People like that don't deserve to play billiards. I'm sure the owners of the venue would really appreciate that kind of BS too. (hint of sarcasm there) Glad you took it to him Fenwick =)
- Three Brothers Billiards on 4/1/2009 7:30:40 AM
That shot is definitely a foul. Sometimes you feel bad asking if a shot is a foul when you are not sure yourself. But it is not worth it to let something like that go and lose a match because of it. The rules are there for a reason. I have made the same mistake before, not bringing up something that I thought might have been a foul. The key is to learn from it and say something next time.
- rimpi on 4/3/2009 5:32:13 AM
May be this can be of help to you
- billiardsforum on 4/3/2009 5:34:00 AM
How does that me?
- sure shot on 4/27/2009 12:16:02 AM
It's been years since I've played regularly and I'm just getting back into it. When playing bar rules straight eight if I table scratch the cue ball on break is the game over? I have been trying to look it up and I can't find anything about it but the guy I was playing assured me this is the rules.
- quickshot on 4/27/2009 7:29:43 AM
No ifs ands or buts.It is a foul. Mitch covered it very well.
- Mitch Alsup on 4/27/2009 8:01:22 AM
If the 8-ball does not go in, the game is still on. If the 8-ball goes in, the game is over. If you scratched, you loose, if not, you win.
Under BCA rules, an 8-ball game cannot be won or lost on the break.
- Nursey1313 on 6/23/2009 6:52:09 AM
Hi there Jason. that shot is definately a foul. Some ball has to hit a rail after you shoot. If both the cue ball and the 8 ball were on the rail, and didn't leave the rail, the shot is NO good. Take care :)
- Caleb on 7/7/2009 6:42:20 AM
A frozen ball cannot be assumed so to speak. It is required to be called, that means any ball touching the rail must be called "frozen" prior to the shot. (It does not matter if it is the eight ball.)
When hitting a frozen ball, the cue ball or object ball must contact another rail if both are on the same rail.
In your case had you called it frozen then it would be a foul.
- Mitch Alsup on 7/7/2009 10:30:47 AM
When a ball is frozen on the rail and you want to roll this ball down the rail--physics tells you that the CB has to hit the rail ever so slightly before the CB hits the OB. However, consider the OB rolling down the rail and running out of steam before dropping in the pocket--this is a foul. A) because no other ball hit a rail after CB OB contact, and B) because no ball was made.
The same situation occurs when someone aims a OB at the pocket, cleanly hits it but it runs out of steam (dead rolled) before dropping in the pocket. In BCA if the ball comes to a rest on the shelf of the corner pocket where its outer edge is 'covered' by the extended rail is it ruled to have hit a rail. It has also hit a rail if it touches the throat of the pocket.
This leads to the TV games where the pros hit the balls rather hard (er than you might think necessary) to avoid the dreaded BIH due to an OB running out of steam.