Ball in hand foul
1/24/2009 1:53:05 PM
Ball in hand foul
So I was playing in the 8 ball playoffs on APA league. I lost. WAHHHH. Anyways, I had ball in hand and was placing the ball first with my hand, then I lined it up better with my cue stick AND TIP. I had not addressed the ball. When all of the sudden everyone starts yelling foul! Even my team called it a foul. They were polite enough to overlook it and let me continue. When I got home I went and found this ruling:
"Even after having addressed the cue ball, a player MAY, if not satisfied with the placement, make further adjustments with the hand, cue stick or any other reasonable peice of equipment. A foul may be called only if the player fouls while actually stroking at the cue ball." This is from the 2008/2009 APA handbook.
So my question is...Was I called for a foul because I moved the ball forward with my tip while placing it!?!? The reasonable peice of equipment quote should cover this though, right?!?!? Please help.
This really sucked cuz it was my last ball and I could have had easy position on the 8 ball, But this distracted me and I missed the shot, needless to say I was pretty pissed off.
This question relates to the following billiard rules:
Ball in hand foul
Replies & Comments
- quickshot on 1/24/2009 3:31:44 PM
The foul was called because you moved the ball with the tip of your cue. It's very technical in the sense that if you move the ball with the tip of the cue it is considered a stroking motion. For that reason I never use the cue to line up a ball. Accidents can and do happen as you just found out.
- Justanotherevolutionary on 1/24/2009 4:47:25 PM
It certainly would be nice if the APA would clarify that. A reasonable peice of equipment suggests you can move it with more than just your hand or the shaft of your cue...So does that mean I can use a peice of chalk to place it? How about my foot? So long as I have 1 foot on the floor? Sorry to sound so silly, but the rules need to state that the tip is the one piece of equipment that may NOT be used to place the ball even if not in an adressed position. I might have missed the shot anyways but this one really gives me some resintment towards the APA and their lack of definition on this ruling.
- Justanotherevolutionary on 1/24/2009 5:13:08 PM
Ok so I went to poolplayers.com and found this in the FAQ's page.
I have ball-in-hand, can I move the cue ball around with the tip of my cue stick?
Yes. A foul may be called only if the player fouls the cue ball while actually stroking the cue ball.
As I said I was not addressed nor was I stroking the ball. I moved it back and forth with the tip and ferrule. Therefore. What I did was indeed legal.
- quickshot on 1/24/2009 8:14:45 PM
Well I think the jury is sill out on that. See below: BCA says,
Diagram 5 – Illegal Stroke by Lifting or Brushing with the Cue Tip
Any lifting, sideways, or other brushing motion of the cue stick, such that the force that propels the cue ball does not result primarily from a forward motion of the cue stick as defined under “Legal Stroke”, is a foul.
Without applying a substantial forward stroke motion, the player lifts the stick vertically or moves it sideways or at an angle, propelling the cue ball with a brushing motion.
- quickshot on 1/24/2009 8:38:15 PM
And here is the other side of the coin: APA
Even after having addressed the cue ball a player may, if not satisfied with the
placement, make further adjustments with his hand, cue stick or any other
reasonable piece of equipment. A foul may be called only if the player fouls the
cue ball while actually stroking at the cue ball, meaning a double hit of the cue
ball (sometimes called double clutching).
Having posted the rules of both entities they are clearly defined. However, I do remember reading some place that the tip cannot be used placing a BIH. I do not remember where I read it.
- Justanotherevolutionary on 1/24/2009 9:17:11 PM
I have emailed the APA, hopefully they will actually respond within 1-2 days. I dunno.
- Justanotherevolutionary on 1/27/2009 11:43:16 PM
Okay so after having caused nearly the end of the world, I was indeed right. Which makes me feel better. What does not make me feel better is that it almost seems I was wrong to do what I did in the first place, just because it caused contreversy. That's some BS if you ask me. Why the $#%& even make rules if they are not going to be called right, respected, and known by even the upper eschalons of pool players. It was the opposing team captains that called the foul, I emailed the APA, they talked to my team captain and district rep. He talked to me and now it's just back to the same old $#!^, nothing has been resolved. So I think I will make a point of doing it on every ball in hand I have from here on out. Maybe then somebody besides me will read the #^#^#^%%ing rule book.
- TennesseeJed on 2/12/2009 5:43:44 AM
"A foul may be called only if the player fouls while actually stroking at the cue ball." This is from the 2008/2009 APA handbook."
while having BIH and placing/moving the ball with the cue is NOT a stroke. see defintion of a stroke.
so it would not be a foul. the only way a foul should/would occur in this situation is if player would cause the cueball to touch another ball
Ball in hand foul