I attempted to sign up in a BCAPL 9-ball league only to find out that they weren't playing a BCAPL game at all. They were playing call pocket 9-ball. I immediately quite the league because 9-ball is not a call pocket game and if you allow one rule change you open the door for a flood of others to follow. I contacted the BCAPL after reading everything on the BCAPL web site and decided that there was no authority for this. What I found were statements like ALL BCA PLAY WILL BE GOVERNED BY THE BCAPL's Oct 1, 2007 RULES.
After reading those rules I found that this league was not obeying the BCAPL's rules. I wrote an E-Mail to the head referee of the BCAPL and he responded that as previously stated "that 9-ball is not a call pocket game". He has skirted the issue ever since stating among other things that leagues are allowed to adopt other rules. Isn't that in direct conflict with the statement about the Oct 1, 2007 Rules?
Isn't that in direct conflict with it's own rules an regulations, no answer is necessary I know that that is true but what can you do about it, sue for for breach of contract or false advertising? Any advice is appreciated.
- Mitch Alsup on 12/22/2010 6:58:01 PM
Ever since the Philippean Tournament in 2003, 9-Ball has been in disarray.
There, it was shown that one could use a soft break, practically guarantee making a ball on the break, and then have a nice easy cluster of balls to run out. So many matches were run out that tournament that the powers that be, decided to start messing with the rules.
- First they tried alternating breaks.
- Then they moved the rack so the 9-ball was on head-spot.
- Then they mandated a hard break.
- Then they mandated 3 balls stay above the kitchen line.
- Then the restricted the break to between the middle diamonds.
- Then they mandated that at least 3 balls cross the kitchen line.
And so the silliness goes on to this very day; and essentially, nothing has worked. The reason is that pros practice long enough and hard enough to find the weaknesses in any break position strategy. There are ways to crack a 9-ball rack that are not possible with a 15-ball rack, leading to high win percentages.
Along with this above silliness, there have always been tournaments that make one call the 9-ball. However, here, the rest of the balls were accepted under slop rules.
But in any event, when tournaments are not run under the rules they impose upon themselves, the TDs have no one to blame but themselves.
- gibson on 12/22/2010 6:58:50 PM
I can't give a direct answer to the question because I don't know it. However, your analysis seems to be spot on and that is what I wish to respond to. Nine ball used to be a money game and was not about rules, etc. The purpose of the game was to wager money and in order to make that work it was necessary to keep the game moving and to keep the money flowing back and forth. Eight ball was never a call shot game either, other than shooting the eight ball. Now they want you to call every bank, carom etc. on every shot. This also has a lot to do with the diminished presence of straight pool. That used to be "the" tournament game. Eight ball games and nine ball games should be easy to play with no excess rules, but I think I will be on the short side of history on this one.
- C. Carl McConnell on 1/6/2011 6:41:26 PM
Well I did it! The Head referee for the BCAPL has washed his hands of me and declared his silence with me on any further communication about this issue. OH MY! Isn't that awful! I guess that I'll just have to embarrass him into it!
So here goes; The BCAPL passed a set of rules on Oct. 1, 2007. On their website their chef referee states that all BCAPL play will be governed by these rules, in saying ALL he leaves nothing to change, All Rules used by the BCAPL will be BCAPL Rules. In the very next sentence the CEO of the BCAPL backs him up by saying that our new book will insure consistent application of the rules whether you play in a local, state, regional of national event. What ever happened to that thought! It seems as though their memories have slipped into a state of Alzheimer's with very short memories. What's that you say, I don't remember that, here are today's rules! And then there is the introduction to the official rules of the BCAPL where the BCAPL CEO States that We created this book exclusively for you - the dedicated players and members who participate in the BCAPL. Our purpose is to provide you with a single document that governs BCAPL play and helps to ensure consistent application of the rules., I embrace these rules, I support these rules and I protect these rules against all comers, when will the BCAPL.
I am personally aware of a League Operator that has a League that promotes a rule in 9-Ball that requires the shooting player to call the pocket that he or she is going to pocket the 9-Ball into, that's not BCAPL by any stretch of the imagination and yet the BCAPL supports her supposed right to play this game even in light of it's own rules! The head referee states that "9-Ball is not a call pocket game" but won't do anything about it! is he afraid to? Or is his site set on the $15.00 X # of league members in that league contributing to the BCAPL!
- Mitch Alsup on 1/7/2011 10:49:24 AM
At this point, your only redress is to sue the league for a sum of money larger than the league can afford to loose.
Or find another place to play with rules you subscribe to.
- C. Carl McConnell on 1/7/2011 4:53:01 PM
@Mitch Alsup - It seems like there is a better way to get the BCAPL to recognize that the idea of the decision that is to hit them in their most sensitive part, their reputation. The BCAPL is very aware if their image publicly and feedback is there best source of rating their performance.
How would you react if all of a sudden you, as chief referee, started receiving many E-Mails every day stating that 9-Ball is not a call pocket game. Or better yet their CEO would be a much better attention getting tactic!
E-Mail addresses are on the website: playbca.com
He would instantly know what you are talking about and after a few days change his call and enforce the BCAPL's rules!
- CrunchMan on 2/6/2011 1:27:11 AM
Carl, what color is the sky in your world? You sat beside me at the meeting where THE MEMBERSHIP voted to try calling the 9-ball for the following 9-ball season, and you raised your hand in favor of it. And now you think it's the league operator who is in the wrong? The LO is merely doing as the members decided ....which is their right to change any rule they like.
BCAPL tried and failed, but maybe I can get through to you. Carl, leagues use BCAPL rules so players can learn them for when they go to play in BCAPL tournaments, not because they have to. Leagues can pick and choose any rules they want to follow and they are still BCAPL sanctioned.
In fact, BCAPL rules don't use handicaps, which you have played with for how many years? Have you been playing 'illegal games' then? Or what about team sizes? BCAPL uses one size for 9-ball and Western BCA uses another. Also, two of our venues don't allow shots made where the cue is over the shoulder. Does that mean we can't play there because BCAPL rules allow jump shots? The list is long, and for all the years you claim to have been playing these rules, you obviously know nothing about them.
The 9-ball season started in October, and even after BCAPL openly tells you numerous times that you are completely out of line, apparently, through ignorance or arrogance, you still don't get the message.
But let me get this last one correct: You put together a petition ...to force changes in a league ....that you aren't even a member of? Wow! Carl, .....what color is the sky in your world?
You also claim your petition needed 12 signatures to 'force BCAPL to force the league to change'. First of all, there are 32 players registered in the league. But even of those 12 who signed, two of them weren't even members, and three players told me they signed it just to get rid of you ...because they knew it was never going to get anywhere. So, you may as well have walked down the street and collected names there.
And now, not only have many of our members had their fill of your BS, it seems you have PO'ed BCAPL enough that they have banished you. Gee, who didn't see that coming? Best of all, ...you did it to yourself.
One last thing: Please, ...sue! I dearly want to be in the courtroom when you make your opening statement and listen to the judge throw you and obsessive your waste of time out the door. Ranting and threatening emails to BCAPL, illiterate postings making erroneous claims hung in our venues, months of harassing our players, all this because of calling the 9-ball, ...in a league you aren't even a member of. Carl, please sue. But more importantly, ....get a life.
- C. Carl McConnell on 2/7/2011 1:49:32 PM
In your order Kevin:
First of all the vote if, I voted in favor, was for continuing with last years rules from 2009 to 2010, to 2010-2011 believing that those rules were call pocket Trish announced to me that we were going to play call pocket on the nine ball immediately after the vote, she also stated to me that no ball in hand foul would be imposed for making the nine ball. Now, if I voted in favor it was to continue using the BCAPL's rules.
The league voted to do away with this rule also by a 54.17% vote where do you get you numbers? As far as their rights are concerned they are obligated to play be the BCAPL Oct. 1, 2007 (+) rules as printed in the BCA PL handbook and testified to in the news letter on the BCAPL webpage, in saying ALL BCAPL play will be governed by the BCAPL Oct. 1, 2007 Rules they leave no rule changes allowable or acceptable. And yes, even the BCAPL doesn't understand the meaning of that statement.
I have not been playing by handycaps, I play games, one on one, the score keeper takes care of all handicaps and handicapping information and functions, that is a scoring function. Now, if you were spotting me balls you might have a point, as it is you have nothing. As Far as rules are concerned I know enough to play a legal, by the rules and I probable know more than you, as for contract law I'm better than most at reading and understanding the meaning of a contract and an implied contract! And if the BCAPL doesn't use a handicapping system where do their score sheets come from and what is the rule handicapping page all about on their website.
THE MESSAGE IS IN THE RULES! LEARN THEM AND FOLLOW THEM!
I am a member of the Juan de Fuca Pool League I filled out all the information before quitting your team it's not my fault if I haven't played or you destroyed the information you were not instructed to! I'm glad that you recognize that their is, or was, a petition how about being a good American and submitting to the majority rules!
You lie. You lied to the BCA and now you are trying to lie to everyone that reads this. Where are the 32 players listed, I want to poll them also.There are only 24 player listed on your web page. and even if you had more then why didn't you play in a league that met the criteria of the BCA, 30 members and 6 teams of 4 players. Every signature was a playing member of the Juan de Fuca Pool League, I watched them play in league!
- CrunchMan on 2/7/2011 6:13:52 PM
Everybody's wrong but you, including all the players who were at that meeting who are now happily playing call the nine. I am one of them.
If you recall, the League Manager ran the meeting, not the LO. He first did the aye's and then the nays. He even clarified it to somebody behind one of the pool tables AFTER the pro vote that 'nay' meant you were not in favor of calling the nine. Two people raised their hands - neither of which was you. It was also stated that this was just for this coming season, and that we'd take another vote at the end of the season if we wanted to continue with it.
Carl, immediately after we voted, I said to you that you'd just voted in favor of calling the nine. You said you hadn't. I looked right at you and said, "Carl, YES YOU DID!" You never said another word after that, to me or anyone else. You left shortly thereafter. If you were confused, you had the chance to clarify the vote right then, but you didn't. The ball-in-hand conversation happened in front of me months later, where the LO told you she thought it might be that but was still waiting to hear back from BCAPL about it. They said later it was 'where the ball lays', which is what we play.
I LOVE calling the nine ball, as do a number of the members who voted for it. And since we did vote on it as a league, I agree with the LO that there is no reason to change the rule mid season.
The membership year starts July 1st. We had a summer league. We actually have 34 current members.
As to BCAPL rules, if you aren't willing to listen to those who made them, then I guess you will have time to think about them ...from the outside looking in. But rest assured, if you ever want to belong to BCAPL again, I strongly suggest you turn the page.
Sadly, Carl, all this would have gone away if you'd just said, "Yanno, this not the game I want to play. Think I'll sit this one out and play in my other league." That's the high road. That's the one the LO is choosing to take with you.
This is my last posting on here, as I have nothing more to say.
- C. Carl McConnell on 2/8/2011 3:18:09 PM
First of all, why don;t you come out and play like a man, Use your NAME instead of hiding behind some user-name like a coward you are! Again I'll take it from the top.
You have your years mixed up. The situation you address happen at the 2009/2010 meeting of the league and Shawn Shaw informed us after Trish's introduction that there were two forms of BCA 9-Ball Rules, one of them was non-call pocket the other was call pocket without ball in hand penalties. The members voted unanimously for the non-call pocket set of rules. It seemed that they were aware that Shawn was wrong about the other being BCAPL Rules.The vote was by raised hands not yea or nay, that would have been to noisy for other patrons of the bar.
Shawn Shaw was in Texas during the 2010/2011 opening meeting of the membership.
You left out one very important detail here, that is that I quit the team giving two weeks notice then, drank beer and left. Please don't forget the details And when did I have a conversation with Trish about the ball in hand rules months later, I had that conversation right after the vote was announced and she was reveling in her satisfaction,you are living in a self satisfying world! What is where the ball lays? The vote was not fairly presented, the membership thought, is did I, that we were voting to continue with the rules from last season which were not call pocket!
When you see an injustice you must at least attempt to correct it, that is an obligation on the part of any one with a good strong moral character. Love calling the 9-Ball or not the leagues response is in favor of its termination by 54.17% and if you were of good strong moral character you would support their desires and follow the instruction at the top of the petition or supply the necessary information for me to pole the remainder of the league assuming that there is a remainder, I don't believe there is.
You may have had 34 members in the summer league but that doesn't mean anything in the fall season.
There are plenty of other leagues out there to play in and if necessary I can always start another perhaps a VNEA league on another night or on the same night, who knows! Competition is good for business! I don't listen to anything that doesn't make good sense
And in-regards to your last paragraph TELL SOMEONE THAT REALLY CARES!
For anyone interested in knowing, Kevin is Trish's prejudice husband, and Trish is the league operator.
This is the way that the BCAPL treats it’s members for attempting to petition a vote by legally acquiring signatures according to accepted American procedures. I accomplished a 54.17% vote in-favor of withdrawal from Juan-de-Fuca Pool Leagues 9-Ball Rules and this is the outcome! What a great organization the BCAPL really is!
PO Box 1788
Port Townsend, WA 98368
Member # 1119-0179914
Effective immediately, you are hereby banned from any further participation in any BCA Pool League or BCAPL sanctioned events or tournaments.
The reason for our actions is your continued disruption and interference of an existing league (BCAPL # 263). Equally bothersome is the time and effort our office has spent to explain our policies to you. You have insisted that the Juan De Fuca Pool League change their rules, going so far as to threaten legal action. Leagues are allowed to alter rules they feel are in the best interests of the players of the local league. In the best interest of the leagues, we feel that your participation is a detriment.
The banishment is indefinite. However, you may apply to the National Office after June 1st, 2011 provided there are no further disruptive actions on your part or others on your behalf. We would evaluate your situation at that time.
BCA Pool League
Director of Referees
Kevin Fong, League Operator #1119
Trish Holden, League Operator #263
Darcy Williams, WBCA President
Bret Baker, WBCA Vice-President
Bill Henderson, WBCA Events Coordinator
- The League Operator will notify the BCAPL office in writing should any player be disqualified from league play during the year.
- The BCAPL reserves the right to disqualify any player not in good standing from participating in BCAPL sanctioned tournaments.
The two above statements mean that the league operator must initiate any player de-sanctioning to the BCAPL. Then the BCAPL will declare that the players are ineligible for play in any sanctioned BCAPL play.
That’s way too much power for some league operators to have, they feel compelled to use it and one has used it on at least one occasion, possibly even more, since I believe that she used it in her previous venue two years ago before she lost that venue. The time is rapidly approaching for her to lose this one also! All in favor say EYE!
I believe this to be true because it all happened immediately after the league operator received her copy of the petition and before the BCAPL received theirs, within one working day and my letter of de-sanctioning was on the way.