I have a predator ikon 2 314 2 shaft and am trying to learn deflection.
in pro skill drills bootcamp dvd the instructor teaches us to only move the butt of the cue while applying english but in this youtube video titled "Understanding Cue Ball Deflection":
He (the same guy) clearly move the entire predator shaft two tips of english not just the butt why is this?
My friend has a standard cue and says you have to compensate where you hit the object ball to pocket that ball in other words she says you have to aim to miss the ghost ball aiming spot or contact point you would aim for to make the shot with no english if you want to make the ball with english applied is this true?
Because in the bootcamp dvd he does not mention altering the aim spot at all.
I hope you can clear this up for me thanks in advance.
- Zeke on 10/21/2013 7:59:17 AM
As one of the responders stated to the video, the guy's hustling cues - not attempting to educate..
Note that two tips of off center cue ball contact becomes more like 1-1/2 tips when he uses the shaft he wants to sell. That 1/2 tip additional or lessened "English" creates 200% more (or less) deflection - but also dramatizes the point he wants to make.
Oddly, he never mentions tip shape. A well rounded, dime radius tip, when moved 1 tip off center will induce far more English than a well used and near flat tip that began with a nickel sized radius.
I suspect he uses a flat tipped shaft to illustrate minimal deflection, simply because of the geometry - then uses a dime radius to maximize deflection. He never let's the viewer see the tip shape.
I'd take whatever instructional value you perceive in that video with a large grain of salt
I know of no one that uses 2 tips of offset to induce English. Doing so increases mis-cue likelihood X 3 IMO.
If you can't get adequate English with one full tip of offset, you ought to rethink which target ball you're choosing.
- stevenn21 on 10/21/2013 8:54:55 AM
Thanks for the reply. Can I ask you one question please?
If I put left or right English on the cue ball with my predator 314 2 shaft only pivoting the cue at the butt to apply this English and stroke through straight, Do I still aim to pocket the ball as if i was using no English? In other words do I still aim at the ghost ball or do I have to hit the object ball in another spot to compensate for the side English?
Thanks again for the reply.
- Zeke on 10/22/2013 8:39:56 AM
If I understand your question correctly, you're simply asking, "do I have to move the tip as well as the butt - or can I just move the butt - to accomplish english"?
It depends. On what?
- How far from the tip, is your bridge?
- How "pointy" or "flat" is your tip curvature?
- How tall are you? Taller folks tend to have wider cue/hand spacing - resulting in totally different aim-point geometry adjustments.
- When draw or follow are combined with English, other forces must be accounted for.
- What cloth is on your table (ball response to English and draw are wildly different on various coverings)?
- Is your stroke very - or minimally "wristy"?
There are so many variables with regard to English that are intuitive, rather than "taught," I urge you to determine what the practical limit is - with regard to English/draw/follow - and the deflection factor each induces - and find out what you can - by the unavoidable. That being, "practice."
Not practice as in "to get better." But practice as in "experiment" - to see how much deflection you can tolerate - and still consistently pocket balls with no, minor, or huge cue tip offsets.
Let us know how you make out. You may discover something we never thought about before!
- stevenn21 on 10/23/2013 6:33:02 AM
What I am asking is when I apply english do I need to hit the object ball in the same place to pocket it will the side throw the object ball of the potting line?
Now what I am asking is when I apply english do I need to hit the object ball to pocket it or do I need to hit it in a different spot which would not pot the ball without english.
The red line is the potting line for the object ball. If I use side will the side throw the object ball off the potting line for example like the green line?
- Zeke on 10/23/2013 7:30:47 AM
This is a great question! The answer could be found in under a minute by simply imparting cue ball English (spin) on one shot - and imparting no English (spin) on the next. Assuming you are good enough to hit the OB at the same spot both times - the results would immediately answer your question.
Another almost identical dynamic takes place when using "throw." In the instance of two OB that kiss, and naturally are a few degrees off target - "throw" can "correct" the misalignment by changing the existing alignment by inducing English on the OB combo by an off center induced spin.
"Throw" however, does not come from CB English (spin). Unless of course the OB and the CB are kissing - in which case English is applied directly to the CB - to induce "throw."
The best brief answer to the illustrated example above is no - English applied to the CB will NOT change the direction of the OB, it will however transfer the spin to the OB.
The longer the shot, the less influence spin can generate. The physics of that? Pure spin will be reduced or eliminated completely once the ball stops skidding across the table. The spin will convert into an arc or a change of direction. The speed, distance and amount of spin imparted on the CB - will determine how much arc or turn will occur.
And only the shooter can control that.
- stevenn21 on 10/23/2013 12:46:17 PM
thank you zeke
- Mitch Alsup on 10/23/2013 9:47:49 PM
Paragraph 1, above is not well constructed.
When a moving side-spinning ball makes contact with another stationary ball, spin is transferred, but in addition the angle of departure of the previously stationary ball is not identical to the non-side-spinning contact.
Place the CB at head spot, and place an OB at center spot. Aim so that the OB will run straight down table to the center diamond, but put as must side-spin on the CB as you can. Result, the OB will hit as far as 1 full diamond from the center! This is throw! learn to use it and it is a powerful weapon.
Paragraph 3 is simply incorrect. A side-spinning cue ball will loose only a small fraction of its side spin as it picks up natural roll. What happens is that the axis of the spinning CB s at an angle with respect to the bed of the table. Once this situation has been achieved, the side-spin will diminish at exactly the same rate as the forward velocity of the CB. In effect the path rolling across the table is at a latitude with respect to the equator of travel.
Spin is a very powerful tool! Applying side-spin to the CB adds energy to the CB without necessarily adding velocity; so you can hit a shot softly, and then use the sidespin on a rail to increase the distance traveled after making contact.
- Zeke on 10/24/2013 7:53:09 AM
@Mitch is incorrect. A side-spinning ball will lose ALL its side-spin when the friction between cloth and ball reach stasis. The energy will merely be converted to a change of direction of the cue ball.
- stevenn21 on 10/24/2013 1:24:55 PM
so if i hit the ob in the same spot but with side will it change the path of the ob?
it sounds like zeke is saying it wont but mich is saying it will
- Zeke on 10/24/2013 2:58:56 PM
Again, it depends. On what?
If you hit the CB extremely hard with 1-tip of pure L or R English (no draw - no follow.), the amount of time the ball is in contact with the table is so minimized - the cue ball will never roll. It will only spin. Conversely, a softly hit CB will stop spinning and roll much sooner than the hard hit. It's about; time, friction, spin, and distance.
BTW, a soft hit using pure spin will of necessity - make the CB curve/turn - visibly.
I still urge you to run the exercise on your table and tell us what you find.
- stevenn21 on 10/25/2013 1:00:17 AM
ok zeke ill try it out cheers
- stevenn21 on 10/30/2013 7:06:51 AM
when i use offset english i can hit the ob in the same spot but if i shift the entire cue i have to compensate by hitting a different point on the ob.
- Fenwick on 10/30/2013 2:06:37 PM
That pretty much covers it. I watched the video and I thought he explained Cue Ball Deflection and how it changes the aiming point or the cue balls path very well. I even bookmarked it to share with others.
Once you master it, it well become second nature as far as how you aim. Some players take longer then others to adjust to a low deflection shaft. Once you master it you will be surprised how easy it is to change cues. The only thing I disagree with is two tips of side spin. It's very rare when I need more the 1 tip of english. Also when you mix side and top or bottom is when your courting with disaster. Master the center ball first and the learning curve should be must faster.
Just a FYI, I'm using Z2 shafts, 11.75 mm. Always have a back up in case you lose a tip if it's affordable.
- Zeke on 10/30/2013 6:27:02 PM
Okay, but what about the problem du jour - the question of the difference in results if the QB strikes the OB with spin or not?
Must we change the point of contact or not?
I believe you are suggesting the same spot is used - the only that changes is the stick-line being offset of parallel to the CB path?
Or is that not what you meant?